On episode 118 of Disrupt Education…
Thank you so much to Peter for hosting us on his show, and taking the time to share perspectives on the future of education. We really enjoyed talking to him and love the energy he puts behind the podcast. Scan the pull-out quotations or read the entire transcript below.
Transcript:
Peter Hostrawser: Welcome to this episode of Disrupt Education. I have two guests: science, teachers and innovators, Sam Long and River Suh, with me today. We will start with you, River. Can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what your educational path is?
River Suh: Thank you so much for having us. I'm currently in San Francisco, helping out high school science teachers, but I've taught in middle school and high school environments and I mostly teach biology and physiology. I forgot your second question.
Revising Oversimplifications to include Gender in Science
Peter: The second question is your path, but let's introduce Sam. Hi Sam, can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?
“One of my foci has become as a teacher who is out as trans to my students: how do I talk about the way that gender, sex, and sexuality relate to or fit into science?
Because I can’t just go and give a typical lesson where I say XX and XY chromosomes or what make you a man or a woman. I wouldn’t want to do that for my students and commit that oversimplification. And it also is not my truth in the first place, so that was kind of my bridge into talking about gender inclusion in biology. ”
Sam Long: Hi, so I'm a high school science teacher in Denver, Colorado. I've been teaching for five years. This year, I teach biology and chemistry.
Peter: My second question, River, was what is your educational path? What does that look like through now, because you have both very different backgrounds teaching in education, and then your path to education, so if you wouldn't mind bringing us up to speed on that.
River: Well, I started as a bio archaeologist looking mostly at ancient populations and analyzing their skeletons. Then I went over into law and got my JD and I started working with creating new constitutions and legislative drafting or intellectual property. As I got out of that and moved on into academic publishing, I started really ramping up my interdisciplinary publishing pathways.
And I was looking at a lot of gaps in how we were addressing both the way students understand the world but also in the way that we are defining ourselves in relationship to each other and so I entered teaching—and got my masters at Stanford about three years ago—really looking at how to help teachers scaffold and create supports that are hyperlocal, that really address the strengths that a lot of our underserved students bring to the classroom. And so I'm coming at it from what a systemic legal and scientific workplace perspective is and what that asks of the students.
Peter: Excellent. That's that's such an all-the-way-around you see. So we're gonna talk a little bit about the curriculum that you all are working on, which is very interesting. Sam, you've been in the classroom for five years, you said. Tell us a little bit about your educational path to that.
Sam: Well, my educational path leading up to being an educator consisted of first, I went to school in Canada. My family emigrated there right about when I started going to school and my family is a family of scientists, so that's like my background. I've always been able to feel a part of science, able to participate in science, and know some of the things ahead of time, and ultimately getting a bachelor's degree in science. And my perspective in teaching is focused on recognizing that not all students have that and some students have no push in their lives that is getting them to think, “well I could possibly do something and this matters to me and this is a part of me.”
And I found that that really affects students’ attitudes towards learning science. And so in the five years that I've been teaching, one of my foci has become as a teacher who is out as trans to my students: how do I talk about the way that gender, sex, and sexuality relate to or fit into science?
Because I can't just go and give a typical lesson where I say XX and XY chromosomes or what make you a man or a woman. I wouldn't want to do that for my students and commit that oversimplification. And it also is not my truth in the first place, so that was kind of my bridge into talking about gender inclusion in biology.
Convert to NGSS & Host Authentic Student Inquiry Over Gender
“It’s a great time, when we’re converting over to national NGSS, to really use this opportunity to be evidence-first. This is the perfect intersection of an authentic socially-charged topic that really models how professionals recognize each other, make human decisions, and work in groups.”
Peter: So let's go deeper into that, because this is really innovative curriculum, speaking truths and bringing it into science. So when you contacted me, I was ecstatic, because this is something that we are, as River said, we're missing a lot of pieces in education. I think you know where are you guys going, how you are doing this in the biology or the science realm. Can you explain a little bit about how this came about with a team, because we have a third person who's not with us today, and what did that look like from building it to actually implementing it in schools?
Sam: So the team consists of myself, River, and our third collaborator, Lewis Maday-Travis, who's a high school teacher in Seattle area and I started the near the end of last year. I started to put together a presentation for a conference called Gender Conference NYC and I felt I had been doing this work in big and small ways talking about gender and biology for a couple of years.
Most teachers have no entry point or even some don't even have an awareness that this is necessary and that it could benefit their students so started in that way what a work consists of now is creating teacher professional development workshops for science teachers, building a web of resources on our website that's currently in development, and publishing some articles to get this idea out there.
We want to see that science teachers need to be thinking more about this and we know that some folks have done that in the past they're kind of there's a few published articles about it there's a little bit of research some question as to how that impacts students in STEM fields but we want to put together a collection of resources that can help any science educator enter this work no matter where they're coming from.
River: And if I may add on to what Sam was saying, the timing of this is very critical, because as you can see, slowly we are examining the problem. Right now, adults are asking questions that we're not sure how to answer, but that our students already are trying to answer, by themselves, without us.
So there's really this absence of any competing narratives, and whoever unfortunately bangs their drum the loudest is going to be the one that students remember the most, regardless of whether or not it's true.
Biology most easily addresses gender by explaining diversity.
“[Gender] belongs in biology before it belongs anywhere else. Biology explains the diversity of living things, human and non-human. It gives us a more complete understanding of the world rather than going with these over simplifications that are not exciting or helpful to any student to learn so.”
So in this regard, we think it's a great time when we're converting over to national standards, the Next Generation Science Standards, to really use this opportunity to be phenomenon-first, to look at just what the evidence is out there, and to go from that phenomenon to a model to multiple explanations in different contexts. We think that this is the sort of perfect intersection of an authentic socially charged topic that really models how professionals recognize humans, make decisions, and work in groups.
I think it's especially important right now as we're noticing science teachers asking, “how do I go and run?” First, “how do I really put the cognitive burden on my students?” Well this is actually a really great way to integrate that in a way that makes students feel like it's authentic and so we're looking at three different levels [of implementation.]
We're looking at the urgency of actually implementing this right now in their classrooms. Teachers who are asking really relevant questions of Sam and Lewis at conferences, who are asking for support on Facebook, for even just small changes or big changes. The need is there. And we're also looking at translating all of these different policies.
There's all of these great ideas and organizations like Sam was mentioning, a lot of that is couched in language that is really opaque to teachers. So how do we both reach and help students currently in classrooms, but also build a more politically and religiously agnostic approach to biology that helps our students deal with genders that we don't even understand yet?
Peter: What I like hearing here is: this is just the beginning. Is that what I'm hearing? Because I feel like, yeah there was attempts before. But for some reason, with the way that the education realm is changing, and everybody knows there that there needs to be changes in education, I feel like this is something beyond biology and science that we can take across curricular activities and such.
Are you looking at that yet? Or are you still just focusing directly on the science and and how does that look taking it from the urgency and the translation and the students, to what comes next? Because this has so many different layers to it. I think there's so many different places you could put it and and start to understand, so if anybody wants to take that question.
River: Sam, you called it low-hanging fruit, right?
Sam: Right. Well, there's work in other content areas certainly. In social studies, a couple of states passed laws teaching the contributions of LGBTQ people in history. There's definitely a lot of work in health and reproductive education. But this really is the beginning for biology.
Some of the feedback that we hear talking to teachers is, “well in what way does this belong in biology?”
But to me, it belongs in biology before it belongs anywhere else. It explains the diversity of living things, human and non-human. It gives us a more complete understanding of the world rather than going with these over simplifications that are not exciting or helpful to any student to learn so: low-hanging fruit.
Peter: Right, and River, did you want to add something to that because I think this you you're right on you go to the source you go to the molecule you go to and I'm not a big science guy but I'm excited for science right now
River: oh that's great to know I think what really is the end goal is to encourage a curricular design that meets students where they are.
Just to review an example, I taught a 11th/12th grade during physiology class where several of the students just did not see themselves as learners in terms of feeling like the classroom environment could benefit them. that was a position that I felt very familiar with my own education in schools.
And so by saying "we don't have the answers, but these are the different models and skills adults have used to understand our world and all these confusing questions we have these tools. let's create conditions where you can practice interpreting that so that you can do better" and I think that kind of approach to curricular design helps a lot of thinkers who don't necessarily feel confident. Like I have teachers who are like, "do I have to be trans to teach about you know transgender culture and how it relates to biological sex chromosomes?"
And I say, "well no but your kid will probably face somebody who is transgender in their life at some point." So are you going to be able to represent every single person your student meets? No. Can you give them the tools to interpret that? Yes, and so designing the curriculum that is very open to a student perspective of experience is really the foundational support that we're trying to provide here when we design curricula.
Where are, what do the students really need and the students right now need something that says, unlike some teachers, "hey you are legitimate, your perspective is legitimate, and it's real."
Peter: As an educator for 20 years, I do I see so much extreme value in this because students who we all know students who don't see themselves in the curriculum are very disconnected. Is that something that they you all have found? And what kind of I guess what I'm trying to ask is then what what ways would you would you continue to change education? So say you had the the education system at your hand and you're already doing this in the science realm and it's it is a fantastic—I would have loved a course like this because it's so dynamic and innovative and different and inclusive that I'm wondering what you would do if you had the entire system at your hands what would you change.
I'm looking at a secondary level where we can look at a primary level or any level so I'm curious to hear that question so yeah that's so how would you change the system to make it better you're already doing it in one curriculum but let's let's take a few of if this what would it look like when it's completed what's the big idea going you alluded to it River about you know we're meeting students where they are how does that look across the board?
All teachers must consider whether their classroom perspectives reflect their students.
“What are some possible roadmaps for this work in biology, to become a national standard for how we include our students and how are we teach our students? Teachers need to consider whether the perspectives reflect their students.”
River: At least for me—and this goes beyond the scope of what our or our team is doing—we're really looking at specific but small scale changes. Instead of saying “men make sperm,” you could say “people with testes make sperm.” When I'm educating my trans student in risk factors for ovarian cancer, I don't say, “women have X amount of percentage etc.”, I say “people with ovaries,” and that student has reported that they feel much better about that approach.
Even at the ninth grade level, I have students who look at the existing way that we teach nondisjunction, meiosis, or things like chromosomes, and then I show them my way of teaching and I say, “well compare these two models”. My student literally told me, "I like this more because you don't have to change a random role that says 'oh this doesn't exist' when like we have students and classmates who exist and fall under that description."
So for me, it's about not only having a science curriculum that recognizes we don't know things—and science is about deepening confusion—but also that school needs to be fed not from k12 into the workforce, but instead the workforce environment needs to be feeding more back into the classroom.
So for example I just answered a question about osteomyelitis this morning in the National Anatomy and Physiology Teachers Facebook group. We had four physiology teachers who were asking each other what the forensic state standards were for race based on a skeleton. And those are things where we don't hear a lot of information coming. It's not reaching a lot of teachers and yet, we're trying to prepare our students for the future.
So I think it's totally understandable for a teacher to be looking at this and saying "I don't even know how to get started because I'm not used to getting that kind of information. I'm not used to interpreting that information from the professional realm and they're not used to interpreting that for me."
No tokenism, no exceptionalism, just integrative evidentiary analysis.
“This is where it’s really about serving our students. It’s not, “let’s have a standalone lesson just on gender”—that is still exceptionalist. That is not sufficient, because it singles it out and it’s just not what we want, right?
We want a more integrative pluralist content-agnostic approach and I think biology is just one lens to implement that. ”
And so what I see is emphasizing student agency based on skills, regardless of what the content is and in the biology curriculum in this phenomenon and I think Sam can add a lot about that in terms of what he's doing with actual teachers in all these workshops here question, about how this looks outside of science curriculum there.
Sam: I'm only really able to identify how teaching about gender sex and reproduction affects students and whether they see themselves in that way of teaching or not I'm able to figure that out because I come from the perspective of a trans person and because I've talked to students who've been willing to share.
Peter: Mm-hmm.
Sam: Teachers need to think about that. I think that's a practice that needs to occur in every classroom in every content area. I know that a lot of work's been done in social studies and one of the things that I get to be part of this year is the Colorado Commission, to make recommendations regarding the teaching of the contributions of minorities in civil government.
That's a bill that passed this past semester that I get to be on the Commission to do work on, and so I'm excited to do that as somebody who comes from science and think about how that might be a road map or that might be a pathway as to what happens with science, because there's nothing in the law that says teachers need to do this work right now. There's things in the law about the way we need to teach health, now social studies in some states.
In the longer term I would like to learn from those stories: what are some possible roadmaps for this work in biology to become national to become the standard for how we include our students and how are we teach our students?
River: And Peter, you earlier mentioned where race figures into biology. Looking at case studies dealing with ethnicity and race and biology in the HHMI's excellent biology of skin color unit really serves our students. This is where it's really about serving our students with the idea that we're not saying, "oh we should only focus on transgender people. we're talking about gender or we should only make something incredibly exceptional and add it." That that's not a very integrative curriculum for us.
So for us, it's not, "let's have a standalone lesson just on gender"—that is not sufficient, because that in itself is still exceptionalist. It singles it out and just it's not what we want, right?
We want a more integrative pluralist content-agnostic approach and I think biology is just one lens to implement that.
Sam: And the framework that we use for biology really isn't specific to science and can apply to any subject area but what I identified is five features of, I'll say "a good gender inclusive biology curriculum" is. That what we're learning is authentic. It's a continual. It's not one separate lesson. It feels like a part of the curriculum.
Peter: Mm-hmm.
Sam: It is affirmative of student identities without tokenizing them and that involves student agency so and that's just that is no matter what we're learning about it that students need to have a voice in what topics they're interested in what they want to learn more about because ultimately to cover our standards we have a lot of freedom as to what models we look at and with that in mind we also want to meet teachers where they are.
River: so for the website as we try to curate and refine more institutionalized guidelines and worksheets for people we do want to give lots of different levels of strategies that educators and all use so whether it's small changes that you want to slide under the rug—or I can't remember what the phrase is, small change you want to kind of sneak in yeah—because you teach in a state that requires creationism in your biology curriculum we have that if you're in a school where suddenly you have a hundred percent freedom and all the parents really want inclusive education, we also plan to have that kind of curriculum.
So we really also want to meet teachers where they are and to lean on their existing experiences.
Peter: yeah you're leading into my next question which was yeah what what are some of the blockers you have the creationism in certain States there's different levels of freedom that you have in in different schools where can people find do you have a website up now that people can find and get some resources already or is that being built?
River: we have some resources existing right now. you can visit gender-inclusive biology com. we have it organized by curricular examples which we really want to add more of we haven't we're kind of busy teaching and doing other stuff.
Peter: right right
River: we have a learn section where people can look at 50-state survey for example school district policies for high school transgender athletes. There's that. We have lots of—
We recognize that there are lots of teachers that may not be in the best position to say things about science, but maybe in a trusted position with students.
And so we want to create a whole range and teachers will be able to find things like talking points with colleagues talking points with admin legal protections by state policies model district policies by state passive aggressive info graphs that you can print out and post on your wall, but you know, anything that might work for you.
We want to respect the teachers. We know that teaching is hyperlocal and they know what's best for their context, their job security.
Peter: when you do look at change in education what were some of the biggest blockers that you both came up with or have seen in your separate districts or are going through this? and how how do you suggest a teacher who is in a situation where those blockers do exist how do you how do you maybe help them strategize to get through some of those walls or blockers?
Sam: I think one of the fastest responses that I hear sometimes is we are putting social interpretations in the science. "you're not teaching the science of it", "we're trying to relate this to identity and those two things don't mix together." But we really see this as a way of teaching more accurate more modern science that prevents misconceptions.
Peter: I really like that. I think you know as a straight white male in from Indiana, I have a lot of questions, and I'm sure there's questions for students. Everybody's learning in this.
Is that the way you feel when you when you start a program or continue a program somewhere? Do you get that excitement because that, for me, learning something new even at my old age of 47 right now is something that is just encouraging and enlightening to me. Can you can you describe that process when you just get a group of learners on this what does that look like?
Sam: Usually, science teachers are pretty amenable to learning new things and interested in this. Sometimes we start off presentations with quizzes that it's all like factual questions about gender, sexual, and reproductive diversity in human and non-human species. That always gets science teachers thinking and excited. And maybe there is one I haven't heard of or they missed, and they want to learn more about. and so that's good that we're starting that and that you read it is a learning process for everyone.
I definitely feel like in any lesson where I'm prepped and I know I'm going to talk about sex or reproduction that I feel a little bit more under the microscope, because, well I need to speak precisely and I need to make sure that I'm communicating what I'm trying to.
And that awareness I think is good and when I notice things I wishI'd said differently like one year I went through a whole unit on genetics we had this unit long project about genetic diseases and I put because some students were asking about this I put a few intersex traits chromosomal traits like a Klinefelter's syndrome X X Y chromosomes and only the end of the units I realized, "well I just put that under this project of genetic disease is we've been using that word disease the whole time gosh." I wish I had said well these are genetic variations because that's not the message that I want to send about intersex.
And when I brought that up with my students it was a chance for them as well to see well okay everybody evolved their language and everybody makes mistakes, or they realize unintended consequences of their actions and at least I hope it made them less worried about saying something wrong, but just focused on speaking thoughtfully speaking inclusively and learning as they go in that process.
Peter: I do like that because I think one of the things that a lot of teachers are afraid of is actually that right like saying something wrong but if you're if you're in a learning environment where okay hold on I said this and and you bring that environment together where you know it's it's just really inclusive and people know that, "hey we're not all perfect and we all have a lot to learn." I think that's that's that's great and that's why it gets so excited out you know just this new inclusive especially in the biology room.
I swear I would have been so much more interested in biology if I had all of you as teachers because I remember you know just checking the boxes off...
River: Oh I remember that too...
Peter: It's not exciting!
River: No not at all! We might have had the same bio experience, which was fill out these forms and bubble in the right letter and we can do better than that!
Sam: Yeah, and I think in biology—at least in some high schools I've been at—gets typecast as well. You just memorize everything. Memorize all the words, memorize all the categories, and you're going to be good. Rather than seeing patterns in the vocabulary, noticing patterns and exceptions. If we don't want to teach this rule, that there are only male and female, and that's true for every species 100% of the time, because we're just gonna be revising that constantly.
River: And we're getting you know increasing demographic changes in the classroom where you have more students that are familiar with language code-switching are familiar with corporate coaching they're going to have to encounter a lot of different ways of interpreting sex gender all of these cultural values that we have as humans and I think that's where modeling that insecurity and that uncertainty and a healthy way is really important for a teacher regardless of their gender and sex identity.
I remember when I was I went to a talk with Sherman Alexie and I asked him how do I help my American Indian students feel less tokenized when we are talking about things like race or certain aspects of history and we said make them feel less alone make them see that throughout all of human history we have always struggled with these problems and we will continue to struggle and redefine them you know this is nothing new under the sun.
Peter: actually I've never heard it put that way being tokenized and it makes such make such sense where you know you're creating a road map for people to to actually understand this isn't just hey a pullout lesson which is is so invigorating to me.
Lastly, what where our different places where people can find you and connect with you are you going to be of speaking engagements online in different places. can you can you tell us a little bit about how people can connect with you?
Sam: we do have the website and I'll put that up as well on the podcast but where are other places where people connect and can find out more about this incredible program that you are building I'm gonna get out the the recent newsletter with the correct dates for a couple of coming conferences that we'll be at and Lewis River do you want to start saying other places that we can be found?
River: yeah so right now you can find us at www.genderinclusivebiology.com for tips news updates and anything that is related to a gender inclusive classroom and curriculum.
You can also sign up for the Trans educators Network we are a nationwide education network of just transgender educators people working as staff or faculty in education. Sam long is the founder of the Colorado chapter, Sam please correct me if I'm wrong on that.
We're updating the website every day and having lots of conversations and changing it based on feedback, so it's very much a living document, and it's very much something we're growing. But to really get connected all the time in this busy day and age to sign up for our newsletters that is the best way to get updated.
But you can also see Sam and Lewis at lots of different conferences and workshops throughout the year and we're getting some interest from other national associations for educators about creating larger-scale shops where we can guide teachers and perhaps workshopping one sample lesson or one sample worksheet, for example.
Peter: Sam and River, it's a pleasure to meet and actually talk with you all about just this innovative curriculum that is much needed bringing a roadmap to an authentic kind of a continual affirmative with agency there's so much to this I can't wait to dig into the website I'll be signing up for that newsletter I have a lot to learn thank you both for being here on disrupt education today thank you and coming conference dates.
Sam: yeah so I've got a couple of upcoming appearances yes the first is the HRC time to thrive conference will be there President's Day weekend February 14 to 16 2020 and the next is the NSTA national science teaching Association national conference which is in Boston April 2nd to 5th and we'll be there as well doing a very similar presentation for science teachers so we hope to see you out there.
Peter: excellent thank you so much again Sam and River appreciate it until next time, ladies and gentlemen we'll talk to you later on disrupt education.